Jay Z Talks OJ, Kanye, & Trump

This interview has been edited and condensed. Annotations by Wesley Morris, critic at large for The New York Times, and Reggie Ugwu, pop culture reporter for The New York Times.

DEAN BAQUETFirst, welcome. JAY-ZThank you. BAQUET The things I want to talk to you about: I want to talk a little bit about race. Your music some, too. I thought the song ["The Story of O.J.," from the album "4:44," 2017] was particularly powerful. I took the message as, "You can be rich, you can be poor, you're still black." Who were you speaking to? Who did you want to listen to that and be moved by it? JAY-Z It's a nuanced song, you know. It's like, I'm specifically speaking to us. And about who we are and how do you maintain the sense of self while pushing it forward and holding us to have a responsibility for our actions. Because in America, it is what it is. And there's a solution for us: If we had a power base together, it would be a much different conversation than me having a conversation by myself and trying to change America by myself. If I come with 40 million people, there's a different conversation, right? It's just how it works. I can effect change and get whomever in office because this many people, we're all on the same page. Right? So the conversation is, like, "I'm not rich, I'm O.J." For us to get in that space and then disconnect from the culture. That's how it starts. This is what happens. And then you know what happens? You're on your own, and you see how that turned out. BAQUET Was it a reminder, too, that the thing O.J. forgot, maybe, was that as rich as he was, as entitled as his life was, he was reminded very forcefully when he became a subject of racial debate that he was also a black man, whether he accepted that or not?

“I Am a Man,” 2017. © Henry Taylor. Photo: © Manuel Franquelo-Giner. Courtesy of the artist and Blum & Poe, Los Angeles/New York/Tokyo. JAY-Z That's right. Absolutely. And for us, like I'm saying, to speak to that the point is, "Don't forget that," because that's really not the goal. The goal is not to be successful and famous. That's not the goal. The goal is, if you have a specific God-given ability, is to live your life out through that. One. And two, we have a responsibility to push the conversation forward until we're all equal. Till we're all equal in this place. Because until everyone's free, no one's free, and that's just a fact. BAQUET When you're as amazingly successful as you are, your kids will live in a very different world from the world you grew up in. How do you go about making sure that they understand the world you grew up in? ADVERTISEMENT JAY-Z There's a delicate balance to that, right? Because you have to educate your children on the world as it exists today and how it got to that space, but my child doesn't need the same tools that I needed growing up. I needed certain tools to survive my area that my child doesn't need. They're growing up in a different environment.1 But also they have to know their history. Have a sense of what it took to get to this place. And have compassion for others. The most important thing I think out of all this is to teach compassion and to identify with everyone's struggle and to know these people made these sacrifices for us to be where we are and to push that forward — for us. I believe that's the most important thing to show them, because they don't have to know things that I knew growing up. Like being tough. 1Reggie Ugwu: Jay-Z anticipated this dilemma on the 2011 song "New Day" from the album "Watch the Throne," in which he and Kanye West both address verses to their future sons. In Jay's verse, he raps: "Took me 26 years just to find my path / My only job is cut the time in half." (Jay-Z's son, Sir, and his twin sister, Rumi, were born last June. His eldest daughter, Blue Ivy, is 5.) BAQUET Do you worry at all that as much as you will teach them history, and as much as you yourself are seen as an important figure among black people in America, that there's something they'll be missing? Or do you think that's silly, [that] in fact they'll have so many advantages that that's too negative of a way to approach it? JAY-Z Exactly. Like, they'll be who they are, right? And it's just certain tools that you would hope for your child to have. You know, like, again, fairness and compassion and empathy and a loving heart. And those things translate in any environment. Those are the main base things that you want — well, for me, I would want my child to have. You know? Treat people as they are, no matter who they are, no matter where they sit in the world, not to, like, be super nice to someone at a high position or mean to someone who they've deemed to be below them. I can't buy you love, I can't show it to you. I can show you affection and I can, you know, I can express love, but I can't put it in your hand. I can't put compassion in your hand. I can't show you that. So the most beautiful things are things that are invisible. That's where the important things lie. BAQUET For me as a black man of a certain age, when I was a kid O.J. Simpson was God. I'm 61, so I was a little kid when he was [around]. Do you expect black people and white people and young people and old people to hear different things in your music? I'm sure I heard some things in that song that you may not even have thought of 'cause I'm a different generation. What do you want a young white kid to hear in that song that maybe a young black kid would not hear?

BAQUET Some people think that the election of Donald Trump has revived the debate about race in America. Some people think that, in fact, there's always been racism in America; that it hasn't changed and that the debate isn't any different. It's just people are paying attention to it. What do you think? JAY-Z Yeah, there was a great Kanye West line in one of [his] songs: "Racism's still alive, they just be concealin' it." ["Never Let Me Down," from West's 2004 album, "The College Dropout."] Take a step back. I think when Donald Sterling3 got kicked out of the N.B.A., I thought it was a misstep, because when you kick someone out, of course he's done wrong, right? But you also send everyone else back in hiding. People talk like that. They talk like that. Let's deal with that. 3Reggie Ugwu: In 2014, Sterling, then owner of the Los Angeles Clippers, was banned for life from the N.B.A. after a recording emerged in which he made racist comments about black people to a female friend. I wouldn’t just, like, leave him alone. It should have been some sort of penalties. He could have lost some draft picks. But getting rid of him just made everyone else go back into hiding, and now we can’t have the dialogue. The great thing about Donald Trump being president is now we’re forced to have the dialogue. Now we’re having the conversation on the large scale; he’s provided the platform for us to have the conversation. BAQUET And you think that's better? That we should be having a conversation? JAY-Z Absolutely. That's why this is happening. BAQUET Do you think the debate over race in America is happening in a healthy way? JAY-Z Well, an ideal way is to have a president that says, "I'm open to dialogue and fixing this." That's ideal. But it's still happening in a good way, because you can't have a solution until you start dealing with the problem: What you reveal, you heal.

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